Audio Question

[olly]

Considering the scenario of playing a CD, you have 3 components. The CD player, the amp and the speakers. Which of these components is most and least important in producing a good sound?

Obviously all 3 are needed, but if you were to buy one good component, one average component and one poor component, which would be which?

I'd imagine the CD player is least important, in that a good sound can still be produced if the amp and speakers are of reasonable quality. And speakers are obviously very important, it doesnt matter how fancy your amp is if the output of the speaker isnt very high.

So what would you say? I'm hoping to possibly get me some sound you see.

[Crisp_Rapper]

but how is a decent amp gonna make a crap cd player sound good?

all are important, but you need a decent source to start with else the end result is gonna be ass no matter how good the rest of your kit.

please inform me if i'm wrong, i'm new to this... seems right to me though.

[Grey Area]

From an uneducated point of view: if the cd you have is recorded in substandard quality it doesnt matter what amp or speakers you have. It'll sound how its recorded.

Having graduated from Sharp equipment to Technics the difference is amazing but i'm not sure whether its the amp or speakers....

...but when ive plugged the Sharp speakers into the Technics amp the difference is markedly worse...

...so i reckon its the speakers that make the difference...but then i havent tried the Technics speakers with the Sharp amp, and i cant do that because the Sharp amp is blown.

[olly]

Thanks for your input guys.

Grey area, the problem would not be poor CD quality but rather a poor CD player. If it's the amplifier's job to boost the signal etc, surely even a portable cd player could make a good sounds through it?

The reason I ask is that I currently have a fairly standard hi-fi system with 2 tape decks, 3 cd changer etc. If I could get away with not buying a new CD player, that would save me some dosh.

[JRMacumber]

Grey area, the problem would not be poor CD quality but rather a poor CD player. If it's the amplifier's job to boost the signal etc, surely even a portable cd player could make a good sounds through it?

An amplifier does just what its name implies. It amplifies. So, if the signal it is getting is ****, then all you'll get is louder ****. If the signal is good, then the amplified sound will be good.

If you want a good sounding system, each and ever component of it has to be good. If the CD player sucks, you're dead right out of the gate. If the amplifier sucks, the quality of the player is a moot point. If the speaker cables suck, the amplifier is wasted. If the speakers suck, then what's the point? Each and every stage of the sound has to work well, or all of it a pointless exercise.

[saif]

I totally agree with JRM. The whole system needs to be thought of.
BUT....the beauty of separates is moving things around and adding bits when needed.
Given the situation you describe, I would get a lower quality CD player BECAUSE this can be dealt with later. The amp and speakers will deal with all sources and so are integral to all your hi-fi usage. The CD player is used only when you use CDs, not for games, videos, TV, MD, radio, tape, vinyl etc etc or whatever else you want to add or take away.

What I would say to you is this, it might be better off just spending a relatively even amount on each or not but, and this is something a lot of newcomers to Hi-Fi don't realise (I hope this does not sound condescending), you must pay attention to the cabling. It may not look cool, it may not impress your mates, it might not have blue lights and a display or anything like that but by **** does it make a difference. I mean speaker cabling and interconnects. I've not got a very high level system at home (in fact where I am now, at the moment, I use a mini system ) but i built it up, upgrading bit by bit and the cables made a huge difference.
And there are some very cheap things (or free even) you can do to get more out of your system - it is not all about those 3 components. Much of the improvement (isolation, placement etc) can be made to ANY system so it is not complicated. But look into it.
I'm no expert, I hasten to add, but there are probably a few around here so just ask. I hate seeing people waste money on ****!

[Space Monkey]

I`d start with a good set of speakers, that way you`re making the best of what you`ve already got, then get a good amp, then a cd player. A middle of the road cd player through a good amp will sound better than a good cd player through a crap amp I`d have thought. You don`t really want any weak links though, so make sure you go through with it and upgrade the whole system(says the man with ****e speaker cable)

[olly]

Great stuff gents, that's exactly what I was looking for.

Especially you saif, that advice was safe (thats barely even a joke ).

If I bought my stuff at a high street store cables are the sort of thing you could haggle into the deal, though I'd most likely buy online. Well, thanks for that chaps!

Next question, if you would be so kind: What is the difference in quality, generally, between stereo speakers/amps and their 5.1 equivalent? I read somewhere that the technology needed to drive 5 channels is significant and so for equal quality to stereo one needs to pay quite a lot more. Is this true? If so, the fact that I don't really watch DVDs would indicate little need of an expensive 5.1 getup. Or perhaps a 5.1 amp would be good future-proofing, then some kick-ass stereo amps just for short-term aural goodness?

Any advice appreciated.

[saif]

me again!
My name actually rhymes with knife

Anyway, you have to be careful with stuff thrown in - make sure its as good as you would buy anyway.

I personally have a Marantz SR4200 amp - ie a Dolby Digital reciever. Its not the greatest piece of equipment ever but it is VERY VERY nice. A similarly priced 5.1 amp will not be as capable in stereo for music in the same way a stereo one is. There are other benefits though. 5.1 stuff is usually not a straight amp but a reciever (not sure why tbh) meaning you get a tuner. Yes, its not separates philosophy but it is nice to get something for not much extra. Now my amp is a very nice one for the price but it is much better for music than other 5.1 amps at the same price (at the time) so that is why I bought it. I know someone else here has a 5200 which they are very happy with too.

Separates have so many benefits when buying, best is versatility. I guess the sales are on now so you can get some very reasonable things now. But you only need what you need. I have (had) a fairly small room so I got the 5.1 amp and 2 decent(ish) speakers and then two more surrounds which were cheap. The amp puts the bass to the fronts and the rears are just for treble. I had no sub or centre as I didn't need it. My reasoning was that my room is small and I felt there was little point in spending load on surrounds I would rarely use. You can get the amp to do all kinds of surround stuff to put things to the surrounds from stereo feeds but I always use "source direct" (a feature that ignores all processing giving a direct route through the amp - "better" sound) so rarely use(d) the surrounds.

Your situation sounds similar.
Basically, I am not a fan of spending loads and my system was built up over time. I have:
Marantz SR4200 5.1 reciever (about year old)
Technics 580 cd player (about 6 yrs old)
Mordaunt 10i speakers (about 6yrs old)
cheap ariston surrounds (2/3 years old)
Then I plug in, when necessary, other things like a stereo VHS, DVD player, all my games consoles (using the argos scart block), MD player etc.
My cabling was pretty cheap, I think its IXOS stuff and was about ?20 for each interconnect and then speaker cabling is thicker and shorter to the fronts and thinner/longer to the surrounds. Basically it did me very well and I am missing it badly now But it is heavy!

I hope this is useful info. Just remember that separates are the way forward. I always try to convince people of the benefits and they always get to a point of being interested and then its not "cool" anymore. So they get some dinky thing and say "doesn't it look nice". Never comments on the sound

[olly]

Thanks saif, you'd make a great wife!

Was that better

[fuzzybee]

It doesn't matter how good or bad your amp,cd player or speakers are your system will only sound as good as the weakest link. If you want a good system you need good components within that system.
It's simple start with the amp and build your system around it, it doesn't matter if it's 2 channel music or 5.1 dvd viewing the amp/receiver is the heart of the system, so thats where you start. Don't skimp on quality interconnects either as it does make a significant difference in performance. If you buy a stereo amp for around ?300-?400 then look to spend around ?250-?300 on a cd player. Then decide if you want floorstanders or bookshelf speakers and then maybe integrate a sub into the system.
As i have said the music you listen to can only ever sound as good as the weakest link in your system. A high end amp and set of speakers will not make an average cd player sound better than it is, an average AV product remains average. A high end amp and speaker setup will if anything make the average cd player sound worse as it will show up more imperfections from the average signal it is getting from the source.
Any average piece of your setup makes the rest of your setup average

[Scythe]

There is a formula along the lines of 3 parts source to 1 amp and 1 speaker, eg. if you have ?500 you should spend ?200-?300 on the source, obviously it does depend on the amount your spending as the more you spend the more this formula comes into play, tbh if your spending ?500 or so you need to use a bit of common sense and buy as much quality as possible, sales and places like Richer sounds are perfect.

I would say your speakers are the least important initially as you'd be suprised at the quality you can get for a ton, so that leaves your amp and cd player, have you tried cambridge audio stuff from Richer? Cheap but very decent quality!!

Also in regards to amps, maybe try and get something which you can add to further down the line (a power amp) I got an Arcam Alpha 8 a few years back and when I added the 8P power amp a couple of years later I was stunned, the difference was incredible!

Setting out to buy your first seperates is very exciting, get it right and you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner!! My main advice would be to investigate though, demo everything you can and scour a couple of months worth of the latest mags/websites so that you go into a shop knowing what your talking about, the shop assistants will know your not to be 'fobbed off' that way, also take music you know well when demoing.

I'd be interested to know hpw much your thinking of spending?

[olly]

Thanks there scythe.

Well, I've just got a swishy 28" sony widescreen for christmas, and I thought when my 18th birthday comes in february a sound system would be a lovely compliment. And as I watch tv and play games prolly more than I listen to music, I'm thinking I should just get an amp and speakers and add components such as CD players later on (perhaps with a hard drive or something, when they come down in price.) So, maybe ?300 for both? Or something. Going by what you said that should be enough.

Please could you make this distinction clear about "power" amps? I've seen receivers that include both pre and power amps, does this exclude from later being hooked up to a further power amp?

Oh finally, if my receiver was capable of putting out 5.1, could I attach any speakers to this? I was thinking I could use my flashy new ones for the front 2 channels, and my relatively poor 2 i currently have for the back.

Thanks again dear.

[davidcotton]

Garbage in Garbage out (no I'm not talking about the band )

Sounds like your on a budget which is fine. Get yourself a copy of the latest Whathifi sound and vision mag. Flick through to the back where the ads are and have a look at the "Richer Sounds" ad. Dirt cheap prices on last months model.

[mid]

Oh finally, if my receiver was capable of putting out 5.1, could I attach any speakers to this?

In short, not if you want decent sound, no. They were great in the early days of DVD, when the early adopters often had really good Dolby Pro-Logic surround setups, but didn't want to replace a grand's worth (which was practically entry level back then) of receiver with one that also decoded DD, but had a full 6-channel input. Nowadays, the only use for them is hooking up to those ?100-?150 all-in-one packages from the likes of Goodmans that don't have decoders in them.

edit - ok, just ignore that last paragraph; I misread and leapt to the dumb conclusion you were talking about the 5.1 pre-outs on some DVD players. What sort of receiver are you talking about? Is it a 'proper' one, or just one of those things that comes in speaker packages? The latter often expect really strange impedances, and so can't be used with 'normal' speakers; you'd be better off running a completely seperate 2.0 system for music.

On the subject of pre- and power-amps, it goes like this. There are two stages to an amplifier. The pre-amp stage selects which input you want to listen to, processes any Dolby or DTS bitstreams in to their component channels, alters the volume and adds any other processing you want. This is then run to the power-amp stage that does the actual amplifying of the signal for the speakers. On your average receiver this is all done in one box, but you can buy seperate pre- and pro- stages to get the best possible.

The upshot of all that is that if you're buying a receiver its well worth considering spending that extra bit for one that has 6/7 (for EX and ES decoding) channel pre-outs on it, so you can add in a power-amp later. My Pioneer receiver is lovely by itself, but adding in a Rotel power-amp just lifted it to the next level.

Can you just remind me what you're going to be using this all for again? If its going to be DVD and Games sound more than music, then you may want to spend more on a half-decent amp that will help everything, rather than half your budget on a really good CD player that obviously won't affect film sound at all.