looking for a decent alternative to XRGB mini

[boxhead]

I really want to get a decent picture on my LCD tv but I can't afford to pay ?250 for an XRGB.

I was wondering if there were any alternatives around the ?50 mark that provided a decent picture for my snes and megadrive and if anyone has any pics that'd also be amazing.

cheers

[dvdx2]

you can get a few cheaper scalers, but to be honest they dont look great. The framemeister is that price for a reason. As an alternative, perhaps pick up a small crt and an RGB lead or use a good MD/SNES emulator outputting 720p +

[boxhead]

I have decent RGB leads for both systems and i'd rather play the original systems than emulate them.

Sadly, Buying a CRT isn't really an option due to space restrictions. I Just don't know if I can justify the price of an XRGB sadly.

[arcnas]

I Think the framemeister is good value for money, I tried few cheaper ones as they were awfull.

but I guess I depends what you want to run, I use it for PS1 and 2, Saturn, Neo Geo, Snes, Gamecube, Dreamcast, X box, so that's 8 consoles so I thought I was worth the money.

[Jaz]

I previously used a DVDO iScan HD+. Not much worse than a FM. Sometimes they pop up cheap.

[S3M]

I really want to get a decent picture on my LCD tv but I can't afford to pay ?250 for an XRGB.

I was wondering if there were any alternatives around the ?50 mark that provided a decent picture for my snes and megadrive and if anyone has any pics that'd also be amazing.

cheers

While the framemeister has some nice option like scanlines and support 240p effects correct even it has issues with some games, crashes outright on Sonic 2. The cost isn't cheap, if you don't want to pay that kind of money there our some other great scalers about for a faction of the price.

The DVDO VP30 is one option it's long out of product but should be cheap on ebay. Has a ton of option but doesn't support RGB.

We use use a cheap RGB scaler for our gaming channel I help run look great and support 720p and 1080p, only down side is games that have 240p flash effect don't look that good but for ?30 it's great value and works with everything I throw at it.

VGA scaler we use, which also looks decent:

Got them off amazon, I'll post links later.

[boxhead]

awesome! cheers for the posting that S3M.

I can see what you mean with the flash effect in x-men vs street fighter. I've encountered similar things to this in some emulators in the past.

If i were to buy one of these which would you reccomend?

[S3M]

Think the issue is down to the scaler drawing 240p effect as 240i, not a big problem and doesn't effect the game it still draws the affect but it just adds interlacing to it. The RGB picture quality it give is as good as the framemeister, it just lacks the features such as scan lines the framemeister has, which I think look rubbish on an LCD TV anyway. There's a slight motion filter it adds as well but it's hard to stop in a lot of games.

Framemeister are very over priced for what they are if you want to capture video you can also look at the XCAPTURE-1 USB 3.0 HD Capture Unit which Micomsoft also make. I suspect if another company made a rivial product it would be in the ?100 range, but no one seems to be interested in making them. My other issue is as you are buying from Japan if something goes wrong, your not protected under EU or UK law.

Oh and by default all scaler at 720p and 1080p force the picture into widescreen 16:9 as they are widescreen formats. Make sure you TV has a ratio adjust button that works in those formats and can force the picture back into 4:3, mine does.

If you budget is only ?50 and I assume you are using RGB Scart for your consoles then I think this cheap scaler would be the better option, had our for a year now and it's still working "touch wood". That and the fact if you decide you don't like using scalers over a CRT in the short run it's a better option and you lose less.

www.amazon.co.uk/Flylink?-Converter-Upscaler-Coaxial-Consoles/dp/B00W9DJMNC/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1453897189&sr=8-17&keywords=RGB+to+hdmi

That said if you want a very high quality scaler go for the framemeister, but there is the odd game it won't work with.

Here's some more SNES and Mega Drive videos from our channel, fullscreen them for a detailed look, Youtube loses a bit of picture quality but not that much.

Nice little scaler vs video here for comparison:

Must admit the XRGB colour looks badly faded in some of this footage, guess the colour setting where set incorrectly, black appear as greys. Problem with scanlines on LCD TVs is that they are impossible to recreate perfectly on a LCD TV. As scanlines are smaller than a single LCD pixel causing them to appear larger than they should be.

[dvdx2]

Think the issue is down to the scaler drawing 240p effect as 240i, not a big problem and doesn't effect the game it still draws the affect but it just adds interlacing to it. The RGB picture quality it give is as good as the framemeister, it just lacks the features such as scan lines the framemeister has, which I think look rubbish on an LCD TV anyway. There's a slight motion filter it adds as well but it's hard to stop in a lot of games.

Framemeister are very over priced for what they are if you want to capture video you can also look at the XCAPTURE-1 USB 3.0 HD Capture Unit which Micomsoft also make. I suspect if another company made a rivial product it would be in the ?100 range, but no one seems to be interested in making them. My other issue is as you are buying from Japan if something goes wrong, your not protected under EU or UK law.

Oh and by default all scaler at 720p and 1080p force the picture into widescreen 16:9 as they are widescreen formats. Make sure you TV has a ratio adjust button that works in those formats and can force the picture back into 4:3, mine does.

If you budget is only ?50 and I assume you are using RGB Scart for your consoles then I think this cheap scaler would be the better option, had our for a year now and it's still working "touch wood". That and the fact if you decide you don't like using scalers over a CRT in the short run it's a better option and you lose less.

www.amazon.co.uk/Flylink?-Converter-Upscaler-Coaxial-Consoles/dp/B00W9DJMNC/ref=sr_1_17?ie=UTF8&qid=1453897189&sr=8-17&keywords=RGB+to+hdmi

That said if you want a very high quality scaler go for the framemeister, but there is the odd game it won't work with.

Here's some more SNES and Mega Drive videos from our channel, fullscreen them for a detailed look, Youtube loses a bit of picture quality but not that much.

Nice little scaler vs video here for comparison:

Must admit the XRGB colour looks badly faded in some of this footage, guess the colour setting where set incorrectly, black appear as greys. Problem with scanlines on LCD TVs is that they are impossible to recreate perfectly on a LCD TV. As scanlines are smaller than a single LCD pixel causing them to appear larger than they should be.

Adding interlacing to a 240p image is a massive issue, and a huge no,no if you are any way interested in picture quality (especially if using retro consoles)

Framemeister 240p reproduction (upscaled to 720p) with scanlines is in a a totally different ballgame to any of those videos you posted. Also that last video of the comparison is pretty laughable, with the obvious intention of making the FM look worse than the cheap scaler. Silly boys lol

[arcnas]

That cheaps HD video convertor is a piece of junk, I had one, when just using Neo Geo only , and its so bad compared to the Framemeister its untrue, for the original snes the only thing to use is the Framemeister for me amazing thing that it is. .

[QualityChimp]

This is a great thread, [MENTION=6557]boxhead[/MENTION], as I've also fancied an XRGB Mini, but not at the same price as a PS4 or XBox One!
I've just bought an original XBox and will want to hook it up to my plasma.

Here are some more links:
Lenkeng make a load of boxes like this that convert/upscale
http://www.lenkeng.net

HDMI Converter
YPbPr to HDMI Converter
AV/S-Video to HDMI Converter
VGA to HDMI Converter
SDI to HDMI Converter
SCART to HDMI Converter
Multi-port HDMI Converter
USB to HDMI Converter
HDMI 2D to 3D
Others

I was looking at the LKV363A, which costs ?35.49 on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B017D1UYIQ?psc=1

Here's a video of somebody testing it pretty thoroughly:
[hide][/hide]

The image seems a lot greasier than this footage though, so I really don't know how it would come up:
[hide][/hide]

A cheaper alternative to XRGB Mini was asked on Reddit too:

https://www.reddit.com/r/retrogaming/comments/2qze71/reasonably_priced_alternative_to_framemeister/

Which ultimately leads to:

http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/

The site is getting a revamp soon, but if you scroll down, there's an impressive list of his favourite upscalers, which I've copied straight from his site, which deserves to be checked out:

"Top 5 processors for 240p signals (as of August 2013)

1st Place: The XRGB-Mini aka Framemeister from Micomsoft. The brandnew king of 240p processing! At approx 380 Euro (US$480) the best processor for 240p you can buy, especially if you have a large high-end Plasma or LED/LCD set. Integrated scanline support, high compatibility (MVS runs fine) and very good picture quality for all 240p sources. No VGA output though (HDMI only).


2nd Place: The XRGB-3 from Micomsoft. At approx. 250 Euro ($320) used still an excellent choice for all your 240p sources. VGA input and output. Scanline support with 480p output and resolutions up to 1920x1200 without scanlines. PAL support if you add a VGA to HDMI converter to the output. Much more inputs than the Mini. You should know the basics about sync processing and RGB signals if you plan on getting a XRGB-3. The Micomsoft XPC-4 performals equally well on 240p signals, is easier to use with less problems. On the other hand, it doesn't accept 240p in component format.


3rd Place: The Videon Omega One and Vigatec FX2 units are fantastic linedoublers. The units are identical with the Videon having two component inputs, while the Vigatec has one RGB and one component input. They have analogue 480p/576p output only (through component and VGA). You can add a SLG3000 for scanlines. Both units also have great comb filters, so if you plan on using a composite video source (NES or Turbo Grafx without RGB mod), they're your number one choices. Prices range from 100 to 200 Euro right now. A scaler with the same processor is the Silicon Optix Image Anyplace , but it's hard to find, does not have RGB inputs and is quite expensive ($500).


4th Place: The iScan VP30 from DVDO/ABT. The VP 30 was about 1,700 Euro when released about 5 or 6 years ago. The going price for a VP30 without ABT102 deinterlacing card is about 150 to 190 EUR right now. The VP30 is much more flexible than the XRGB units. You get overscan and zoom controls, color controls and much more. Picture quality is great, but not as pixel perfect as with the XRGB units. The VP30 offers a VGA input for Dreamcast and a VGA output to add a SLG3000 for scanlines. A HDMI output is available for outputs up to 1080p. The scaling engine isn't bugged by the massive ringing the DVDO Edge unfortunately shows. The VP20 is the same except for the missing VGA input and output.


5th Place: A whole bunch of processors you can get around 80 to 120 EUR if having an eye on the (European) eBay sites. This includes the Cinemateq Picture Optimizer Plus II which even has real Scart inputs for RGB sources, the Vigatec Dune or the iScan HD/HD+ units. They all offer VGA output support to add a SLG3000 for scanlines. All of these machines were very expensive (1,500 EUR and more) when released many years ago. They are still considered high-end and are a much better choice than any cheap china-made single-chip solution.


Honorable mention: The GBS-8220 / Sync Strike / SLG3000 combo just works. Cheap (less than $50 for the GBS8220), easy to use, highly compatible. The GBS offers a RGB input (but you need a sync cleaner like the Sync Strike for home systems), Quality is ok once used with a SLG3000 and the GBS-8220 requires some custom cabling.

Top 5 processors for 480i signals (as of August 2013)

Here's a revised list, if perfect 480i processing is more important for you. For example if you want to play many PS2 RPGs or GameCube games without 480p support.


1st Place: The XRGB-Mini aka Framemeister from Micomsoft. The Mini produces amazing detail out of 480i sources. Static images easily reach the quality of real progressive sources. With a flexible scaling engine, the Mini is even able to handle difficult 480i content, like those classic compilations running 240p games at 480i (Capcom Classics, Taito Memories).

2nd Place: The iScan VP30 with ABT102 upgrade card from DVDO/ABT. A VP30 with ABT102 is about 300 to 330 EUR nowadays. DVDOs video deinterlacing with the ABT102 card is fantastic and the detail level is outstanding. You will get similar results with the iScan VP50. The DVDO Edge, Duo and VP50Pro add a little more ringing to the upscaled picture, but have the same excellent deinterlacing.

3rd Place: The XRGB-3 from Micomsoft - in B1 mode only. B1 means 480p output only and only VGA. The XRGB-3 technically doesn't deinterlace, but it tries to emulate the interlaced look of classic CRTs. If you play mainly fast-paced action games or simply like the sharp, but slightly flickering look of CRTs with 480i material, then the XRGB-3 is your choice.

4th Place: The Optoma HD3000 and the PMS Crystalio II. Both processors use the Gennum VXP chip for deinterlacing. The Gennum has retains an amazing detail level with 480i content, but has a slightly blockier scaling compared to the DVDO processors. On the other hand they don't add ringing like the DVDOs do. The Crystalio II is sharper than than the HD3000 overall the better designed machine. The HD3000 is basically a white horse design based on Gennum's evaluation board. The HD3000 exhibits slights problems with some PS2 revisions.


5th Place: Anything else once high end you can fine cheap nowdays. All the Faroudja based processors (e.g. the DVP-1000 ) do a nice job on 480i material. Their picture is softer and a bit less detailed compared to the processors listed above, but they still do a better than job than your standard TV nowdays.

Top 5 processors for 480p signals (as of August 2013)

And here's a special list, if you want to get better results from your 480p sources. 480p sources include PS2, DC, GameCube and XBox1.


1st Place: The PMS Crystalio II offers the BEST upscaling of progressive sources of all processors I've have ever tried. The detail level is amazing an the lack of ringing simply gorgeous. The CII is hard to find though and at about $800 not exactly cheap.


2nd Place: The Lumagen Vision HDQ is a beast when it comes to 480p processing. The only processor available with four fully processed RGBHV inputs. A great scaling engine, completely free of ringing. Other (cheaper) Lumagen processors should offer the same level of processing, just not as many inputs.


3rd Place: The Optoma Themescene HD3000 is a close third. Compared to most other video processors (e.g. the DVDO Edge) the upscaling is super clean and completely free of ringing or distracting halos. The Lumagen gets 2nd place because it's the better hardware design and the more solid machine. Also the HD3000 can't correctly interpretate 720x480 on the VGA inputs.

4th Place: The XRGB-Mini (Framemeister) does a good job on upscaling 480p material, but the scaling engine is just not as good as the ones of the processors above. With a bit of trickery (960 line output on a 1080p signal) you can get great quality on 480p sources. Nintendo's Wii is an exception to the rule: The Wii's signal is really bad and it doesn't look to great on most processors. Micomsoft obviously fine-tuned the Frameister to look fine with the Wii, so if you play a lot of Wii games, the Framemeister should be your choice.


5th Place: Use a transcoder solution ! Many TVs add a lot of processing of the the component inputs, no matter if the source is interlaced or progressive, while the offer nice "raw" scaling on the VGA input. VGA inputs are intended for PC or notebook connections, so the processing is tuned down for best readability of small fonts. Using a transcoder like the Burosch Con-1, the Crescendo RTC2000/2200 or the Neoya X2VGA2 allows you to connect 480p component sources directly to the VGA input of your TV. If you don't have a VGA input on your TV set, component to HDMI "transcoders" are available as well and usually offer great quality.


Honorable mentions: The Gefen VGA to DVI Scaler Plus would have made place 4, if it didn't have some problems with component signals. For VGA signals (like Dreamcast) the Gefen is still a wonderful little gimmick, which produces fantastic results up to 1200p. The Micomsoft XPC-4 would rank up there as well, but my test unit had problems with component signals as well, so you need an additional transcoder to make it shine with 480p component sources."

[Leon Retro]

The Framemeister isn't perfect, but it does a great job. With machines like the PC Engine, Mega Drive, Super Nintendo, the image looks stunning. I upscale to 720p and add scanlines - and the image on my big LCD looks close to CRT quality. The FM also does a really nice job with my PS2, making Gradius V look like it does on a good CRT.

It is expensive, but lots of people are happy with what it delivers.

[dvdx2]

The Framemeister isn't perfect, but it does a great job. With machines like the PC Engine, Mega Drive, Super Nintendo, the image looks stunning. I upscale to 720p and add scanlines - and the image on my big LCD looks close to CRT quality. The FM also does a really nice job with my PS2, making Gradius V look like it does on a good CRT.

It is expensive, but lots of people are happy with what it delivers.

thats right; its great but not perfect - for everything 240p its unbeatable - 480p is very good, but it doesnt handle fast moving 480i (pretty much the ps2) that well though. infact i'm toying with going back to crt for the ps2 and possibly the n64 -fancy abit of lightgun action too.


@ Leon - what settings are you using for 480i?

[S3M]

Framemeister 240p reproduction (upscaled to 720p) with scanlines is in a a totally different ballgame to any of those videos you posted. Also that last video of the comparison is pretty laughable, with the obvious intention of making the FM look worse than the cheap scaler. Silly boys lol

Your talking up the frameister like it gives a 100 times better picture quality it doesn't it's not a huge improvement having used one myself. It doesn't give a sharper picture in terms of still frames when paused, it does however look better in motion making the picture a fraction sharper and cleaner.

Only worth investing in if you can splash out ?215 with no worries, the fact it doesn't work with quite a few games is a big problem for the price tag. Part of the problem is the tech in it is quite out of date and really you should wait for the newer model, which is likely due out in the near future. The OP has a budget of ?50 you can't get a framemeister at that price. The framemeister has to be shipped from Japan, at least post a link to where you can buy it dvdx2, so people can see the cost upfront: https://solarisjapan.com/collections/micomsoft/products/xrgb-mini-framemeister-compact-up-scaler-unit

(Also should be mentioned it support 21 pins RGB so requires an adaptar for euro scart which is another ?15)

Also before slagging off that Youtuber you should see his review of the Framemeister he does rate it quite highly and you might learn something from his framemeister review as he clearly know his tech, based on some of his retro videos.

As mentioned in my last post if you want scanlines go for a CRT, as no LCD can reproduce them correctly.

If you want perfect 240p and 480i then you should checkout the DVDO VP30, doesn't support RGB Scart but does S-Video and Component also feature a huge range of gaming and screen options. Used to cost around ?1000 at release but flopped as a result, it's a very nice bit of kit however. Ebay only these days but support 720p and 1080p.

Talking of the PS2 you really need a component scaler for best quality.

This is a great thread, @boxhead, as I've also fancied an XRGB Mini, but not at the same price as a PS4 or XBox One!
I've just bought an original XBox and will want to hook it up to my plasma.

Here are some more links:
Lenkeng make a load of boxes like this that convert/upscale
http://www.lenkeng.net

HDMI Converter
YPbPr to HDMI Converter
AV/S-Video to HDMI Converter
VGA to HDMI Converter
SDI to HDMI Converter
SCART to HDMI Converter
Multi-port HDMI Converter
USB to HDMI Converter
HDMI 2D to 3D
Others

I was looking at the LKV363A, which costs ?35.49 on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B017D1UYIQ?psc=1

A cheaper alternative to XRGB Mini was asked on Reddit too:
https://www.reddit.com/r/retrogaming..._framemeister/

Also have one of those scalers QualityChimp, I believe Lenkeng are the ones behind most of the unofficial scalers, currently available on the market. Has the same issues as I mentioned for the RGB scaler, but still looks great for the cost.

Sorry QC that footage you posted is terrible, best not to post video unless you know the recording source it looks like someone recorded it at 480p then used their video editor to change the resoultion to 1080p, so it's going to look terrible.

PAL Nes video using composite scaler:

This is the NES using no scaler at all just using a raw composite record:

N64 videos using it via S-Video and scaler:

S-video alone no scaler:

I'll leave it to you to judge QC which you think is better between the standard footage I posted or those using the scaler. Fullscreen for the best results QC.

[QualityChimp]

Also have one of those scalers QualityChimp, I believe Lenkeng are the ones behind most of the unofficial scalers, currently available on the market. Has the same issues as I mentioned for the RGB scaler, but still looks great for the cost.

Sorry QC that footage you posted is terrible, best not to post video unless you know the recording source it looks like someone recorded it at 480p then used their video editor to change the resoultion to 1080p, so it's going to look terrible.

Ha ha ha, sorry buddy! Didn't mean to confuse the issue.
I just tried to collate some info in my 45-minute lunch break and those were the only videos that showed the LKV363A in use, rather than white-gloved people turning the unit around in their hands. See?