PES 2013 (All your formats)

[nakamura]

The PS2 PES motion capture and animations were good by last-generation standards, they don't really hold up now.
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Yes they do, the game is far more fluid and natural looking in most areas than PES 2012 is. In fact, playing it recently I am amazed how good some of the animation is.

If you are saying it is to do with the engine then the motion capture is rubbish then. God knows how they managed to get animation as bad as the last couple of PES games. If they are using motion capture though, I fail to see what the engine has to do with that.

Last generation PES is still a better single player experience than Fifa 12. The AI is more dynamic, free and intelligent. The teams feel wildly different to each other, the teammates can often pop up all over the place and the rebound physics in particular feel totally natural as opposed to Fifa with the ball constantly falling at the feet of the striker.

[ezee ryder]

I would strongly disagree, mate. As I said, this notion is part of the reason why Konami fail to move on. Play PES5 (widely regarded as the best in the series) and play FIFA 12, the animations are not up to standard of what is expected this generation from a football or sports title. Hell, NBA 2K12 shows up FIFA 12 in regards to tech and general visual fidelity. Hopefully you don't take offense, but I know you're a huge advocate of the last-gen and love your PS2 games, possibly clouding your judgement? Because by no means do the PS2 PES titles hold up in regards to animations and general tech by current-gen standards. Not even close. In fact, most developers would laugh that off that like meant nothing.

Maybe the motion capture is rubbish, but the fact is the engine is limited and animations won't improve (no matter the quality of motion capture) unless the tech is overhauled. What Konami are using right now is a modified version of the engine that was used during the PS2 days, hence certain limitations. The engine has so much to do with it, as if it is limited in certain ways, then no matter the quality of motion capture, animations won't be up to standard. I fail to see how you don't get that, mate. It's like buying the most expensive graphics card and biggest/best memory, yet the motherboard not being able to cope with either. Again, obviously, if the engine Konami are using is limited in terms of what it can handle, then the quality of motion capture does not matter at all.

Again, even in terms of AI and team intelligence, PS2 PES games are good by last-gen standards. Don't really hold up now, mate. Played PES5 just last month, as we were doing a little "let's see" thing between mates, and the AI (especially team) is incredibly frustrating. There is certainly some diversity between teams, but that's statistic based more than real intelligent AI behaviour. Like I said, very good by last-gen standards, but not up to scratch when compared to current-gen sports titles (football or otherwise). That's goes double for physics, no way do the PS2 PES games match up to FIFA, PES or any other current-gen sports title. Yes, FIFA 12 has plenty of issues, no argument there, but it's better than PS2 PES titles in terms of tech and AI behaviour.

[nakamura]

I don't think so at all. Perhaps go back to playing it for more than just a bit to get the reasoning of what I am saying. I have played it extensively for the past week, for the first time in years in fact and the game has so much variety in the way it plays.

The individual motion capture animations in PS2 PES are sometimes magnificent, sometimes they are not of course. For sure it is not acceptable for a current gen game but they are still better than PES12. Fifa has incredible animation at times, the best in a football game yet. The animations in PS2 PES don't link well enough for current gen, that much is for sure.

If the motion capture animations are top draw, I fail to see how the engine can hamper an individual preset animation. The only issue I see is the transition between animations. Even the running animation is robotic which it wasn't on PS2. In fact it even looks more natural on PS1. On PS3 they look like robots most of the time. You can only blame the engine so much.

Regarding the team play, if you spend time setting up you get things happening that never happen in Fifa. For instance I set up for counter football, was defending a corner and got a break down the wing. Managed to get all the way down the pitch to cross it and my full back was on the end of it. Never ever happens on Fifa. Fifa is too regimented, the computer can read your inputs and every team plays exactly the same way. The main difference with Fifa 12 and PES PS2 is that you can instruct a player to make a run, that can help big time. That said, if you don't the AI is often so bad that players just stand around leaving huge gaps that could be exploited.
The goalkeepers are also horrifically stupid in Fifa 12, making the most simple saves look difficult and you can pretty much guarantee a finesse shot from a certain place will always go in.
I don't think the AI is PES PS2 is amazing, not at all but I still find it more diverse than Fifa 12. Fifa 12 is very last generation in that respect. PES 12 however has the best AI I have seen yet.

As for the ball phyiscs. I never said PES was better in this respect, more that the rebound on PES feel natural and on Fifa 12 you can blast the ball at the keeper from 8 yards and it pop back 4 yards into the feet of the other striker more times than is realistic.
This is not physics, this is scripting.

[Dazzyman]

New PES 12 is up there with W11 5 FE. FIFA is also full of horrific bugs, it's terrible online always been full of cheaters and glitches and Fifa is in my opinion is way more scripted with shots on goal with full control of shots on. It doesn't use body balance, wrong foot stats etc as effectively and for me much much easier to score. It is also terrible at wing play into box.

Simple fact is tho there different takes on football, there is no right or wrong if someone prefers one over other and nobody should be forcing there point of view that one is better than the other from last years as its the first time PES has been done right on next gen. I converted to Fifa 3yrs back and went back to PES this year, no right or wrong I just prefer it.

FIFA has great Be a pro but I like my master league.

I guess it's same with Baseball you either prefer 2k or MLB the show

[hudson]

I thought the problem with PES' animations (apart from some poor run animations) was how one animation blends into the next. FIFA does this fluidly.

Shame there is still no new engine for PES. If it's just an update, I would like a better match flow. It can seem all too fast and end to end at times. Possibly the reason why the score lines are not so high is due to some strange shooting mechanics.

A better finesse shot. A better fake shot. Better goalies. A tackling system that is bit less vague. What I understood of how it works leaves me thinking it's not working the way it should at times.

I hope (for the umpteen time) they can deliver something better than last year.

[ezee ryder]

@nakamura

Again, I would very strongly disagree and this rose-tinted view from quite a few PES fans is holding Konami back, leaving them slightly afraid to take any big strides with the series on the current-gen. Any potential shown in preview code quickly disappears as they revert to mechanics similar to last gen titles. You could say they need to be more confident in their way of moving the series forward, but ultimately they will listen to fans, who (sadly) sometimes don't even know what they exactly want.

The variety is good by last-gen standards, doesn't particularly match up to current-gen standards, even though neither PES or FIFA has completely nailed the AI and variation in play.

Regarding the modified PS2 engine having nothing to do with the limited animations despite motion capture, I can't fathom how you can't see that is actually does, mate. There certainly is an issue with transition between animations, it stems from the same problem that during the PS2 days as well, hence it's still present in the PS3 version thanks to the old engine being used as a base. FIFA 12 is more fluid because EA's engine is far superior to that of Konami's. It doesn't have the same limitation, in fact I believe EA could actually squeeze more out of it.

More natural on the PS1? Seriously? Come on, mate. By PS1 standards, sure they were "natural", don't match up to the current gen versions at all, even though they aren't great.

The team play point, several dedicated FIFA players will tell you if you do spend time setting up your team and tweak the sliders you can get different styles, but that's not the point. FIFA's AI isn't perfect, that's for sure, but still is less frustrating and better than any PS2 PES title. This coming from someone who doesn't play FIFA 12 single player at all anymore, only multiplayer. Again, AI in PS2 PES titles was good by last gen standards, not current gen. Time and standards move on.

In regards to rebounds, you mentioned them in regards to physics in your previous post, hence I touched upon that. Yup, has more to do with the scripting than anything else, a tool both PES and FIFA still use. Hell, it was heavily used in the PS2 days of PES, especially on the higher difficulties, a cheap way of doing things.

@Dazzyman

Yup, certainly no right or wrong, people will have their favourite title. After all, gaming is a subjective medium. We were just discussing certain aspects of each, compared to PES titles on the PS2.

@hoolak

New engine for PES will come with the new consoles. I hope they take a leaf from EA's book and start working on something as soon as they get dev kits. Who knows, they might be doing that already! With PES 2013, I expect some nice improvements, but nothing too major.

[nakamura]

Nothing rose tinted here Ezee, I haven't bought a PES game this gen, only rented. Also I started playing Fifa from 09 and had a two year gap playing no football game at all. I've also not played a PS2 PES game for more than 10 mins for over 4 years. I am simply stating what I have found in the last week. I also couldn't give a monkeys if PES is good again, I care nothing for the team and the current state of the game.

You are also misunderstanding what I am saying regarding the animation. I never stated that the transitions weren't a problem, but that shouldn't affect an individual animation sequence at all.

Also you shouldn't have to 'tweak the sliders' to make a football game better, that is covering up poor AI.

I think you are dramatically overstating how good AI is this gen. Many a discussion on this board has come up on current gen games that still have shocking AI. More power does not mean better AI, more power does not mean better graphics. Better programming does.

[ezee ryder]

The rose-tinted comment wasn't directed at you, mate. It was more of a vague generalisation based on what I see and hear from other PES fans. Yeah, that's the best way to go, no blind allegiance, but nothing wrong with wanting a series you once loved to be excellent again.

I reckon we've reached a plateau regarding the engine-animation stuff, lol. Clearly you believe in one thing (motion capture quality not linked to limitations of engine) whereas I staunchly believe in another. I wish I could get someone close to the series this gen to prove to you otherwise. C'est la vie.

I agree, you shouldn't have to tweak sliders to make your game better, default set-up should do the job. However, more and more developers are doing it with sports games, giving players options to tweak the gameplay if they wish. Nothing particularly wrong with options though, usually a good thing.

I'm not saying AI this gen is perfect or amazing, far from it. The point I am making is, standards move along with time. As the technology gets better, standards get higher, it's only natural. More power doesn't instantly mean better AI, neither does it instantly mean better graphics, but it does mean the developers have the tools and opportunity to provide both. Leading me back to the point, standards move on with each generation. PES PS2 was good by last gen standards, not current. Whilst the mechanics and features of PES or FIFA don't meet the standards of what we should be getting this gen, they certainly are an improvement compared to last gen. Obviously, we disagree though, which is cool.

[nakamura]

Yeah I didn't think it was aimed at me bud, I just wanted to be clear that is all.

[Stoppy2000]

New PES 12 is up there with W11 5 FE. FIFA is also full of horrific bugs, it's terrible online always been full of cheaters and glitches and Fifa is in my opinion is way more scripted with shots on goal with full control of shots on. It doesn't use body balance, wrong foot stats etc as effectively and for me much much easier to score. It is also terrible at wing play into box.

Simple fact is tho there different takes on football, there is no right or wrong if someone prefers one over other and nobody should be forcing there point of view that one is better than the other from last years as its the first time PES has been done right on next gen. I converted to Fifa 3yrs back and went back to PES this year, no right or wrong I just prefer it.

FIFA has great Be a pro but I like my master league.

I guess it's same with Baseball you either prefer 2k or MLB the show

To claim FIFA is terrible online is laughable. Head to head seasons, ultimate team and pro clubs are all brilliant. Cheaters and glitches? Not in my 300+ games. Unless you are counting short virtual pros as cheating.

As for pes, me and Tobal tried the first ps1 pes some time ago and it was truly awful. Of course in its day it was ace.

[ezee ryder]

Yeah I didn't think it was aimed at me bud, I just wanted to be clear that is all.

No worries, enjoy a good discussion, even though we might not agree.

To claim FIFA is terrible online is laughable. Head to head seasons, ultimate team and pro clubs are all brilliant. Cheaters and glitches? Not in my 300+ games. Unless you are counting short virtual pros as cheating.

As for pes, me and Tobal tried the first ps1 pes some time ago and it was truly awful. Of course in its day it was ace.

Yup, online is one aspect EA has nailed with FIFA 12, it's fantastic. You get cheaters on almost every game you play, it's not exactly EA's fault. Plus, they've done all they can in regards to dealing with such situations when they arise. Credit where it is due.

[Tobal]

Crunch, crunch, crunch, POOFFF "he must must have lead in his boots"

[Stoppy2000]

'its a yellow card, that's an early bath'

[nakamura]

Indeed Fifa is aces online, pity most of the people you play are twats.

[Stoppy2000]

Indeed Fifa is aces online, pity most of the people you play are twats.

I do quite like beating them though.